Status/Ability to be permanently opted out of any PvP for non-combat classes

[Cailener1234]

My 2nd suggestion provides a way for them to still be affected by PvP since the recurring issue is tied to TEF. If we had them be able to avoid PvP altogether, then they wouldn't be able to be Special Forces and go into Deep Space/Kessel which would cost a host of other issues. That being said, if someone is accidentally SF, in which everyone here has been through that, then that's entirely on that person.

To be clear, I 100% agree with you that there are little things that people can do and learn. If you left click on a person and if this reticle/cursor
is not there, they are clearly able to be attacked. You can also hover your mouse/cursor over the player, click x, and target them that way. You can also use the ~ key to examine, duel, trade, show character sheet, invite to group. On a vehicle, you can examine it, enter it and store it. This has always been the case since I started this game back in 2005.

I'm simply just trying to think of ways to assist folks overall while not allowing people to take advantage of the ideas we put into place. I want to welcome everyone here and to enjoy the server the way that they want. If the way they enjoy the server infringes on others enjoyment, then that's a problem and will be handled on a case by case basis. This takes the responsibility of EVERYONE to make this server work. Crafters, Entertainers, PvErs, PvPrs, and hopefully RPers too. If you don't like what someone is doing to you, report them, provide screenshots, give suggestions from small to big. Our CSRs are some of the most helpful folks in the game and take the time to work with people.

[Stormfinch]

Cailener1234, post: 697, member: 548 wrote:

Here is an additional idea that I just thought of that can be a compromise and be much simpler.

Instead of making it an ability or status that you toggle on or off, tie it into a jewelry set, labeled the Pacifist’s Set, which would be No Trade and Unique.

Since the discussion is surrounding more of the TEF system and not so much PvP in general since the game itself already makes it abundantly clear on your status, the 5 piece set bonus would grant a permanent buff/status that the wearer would be considered not affected by TEF while in turn keeping that player affected by the existing PvP zones.

The following condition to even wear the set at any given time would be to have a minimum of any of the 3 master class boxes checked under entertainer or crafting trees. To make this streamlined, 2 sets of these would be created. One for the Crafting side, One for the Entertainer side.

Each of these sets would cost 10 tokens each.

If any of the 3 master boxes are unclicked, then that person would lose the ability to wear the set pieces until they would have any 3 boxes again.

Why not just tie it to the existing crafters' and entertainer sets? If X=at least one piece of jewelry and Y=two or more masters completions, then Z. That way, both professions wouldn't have to constantly be switching between sets. It doesn't however protect the people fresh off the transport, so a notification on the launcher or something would certainly be nice. My original toon was born on live before jedi were a thing so I fell in love with a game that didn't have them, and they've never held much interest for me. Needless to say, I didn't realize that reading up on their care and feeding was a requirement.

I also have a question. Is all PVP initiated here with a single click?

[windshadow0177]

**I’ve waited for as many as possible to have their say before I lay out my analysis of this issue. My stance has not changed, and I’m about to dispassionately lay out the entirety of my thinking and point of view. I’m asking all of you for the same.

TLDR at the bottom.

First, about me. My perspective is as a dedicated crafter – with a single caveat: my game is in space. I am a pilot. If there was a way for me to get everything I need to do the things I love, I’d never have my feet touch land. If Ord Mantel would rent me a hanger for a house, I’d stay there. If it were possible to park harvesters on rocks to get the resources I need to craft, I’d do it. Hell, I’d use the asteroid mining system to get all my resources if it worked that way.

The only reason I have ground-combat avatars is because I need them to collect resources. By my count (and my count may be off,) there are only 3 crafting classes that I don’t care about – chef, bioengineering, and beast mastery. As I said, that may be off as I’m still learning your system.

On the other side of that, all my avatars have maximum hand sampling skills and harvester efficiency skills. In the technical sense, none of my avatars are for ground combat. Every one of my avatars’ purpose is to support crafting. Ground Combat is the sideshow – a necessary side-effect so that I can create. My toons are on the ground to craft and collect resources. While I might dabble in other content, like OGs, that’s secondary to what my SWG engagement is about.

My interest in PVP – in space or on the ground – is zero. If possible, it is deep in the negative digits. The only person I care to measure myself against is me.

Last, what catapulted me into this discussion – and I’ve already related one incident. What I have not related is what followed. That incident was reported to the server’s support system. To summarize that CSR’s response in a single sentence, “Boys will be boys and it’s always been this way.”

A second incident involved another friend, and while this incident appears to have been more benign, it remains deeply impactful and negative to both me and my friend. In some ways, it’s more concerning to me because of its apparent accidental nature. This appears to be a case of wrong place/wrong time and is more worrisome because it could have very easily been me; that it will eventually be me. I am aware of server leadership’s engagement with my friend on this issue, and am appreciative that it is getting some attention. What I think both of these incidents show is that the system needs a bare minimum of added guard rails.

As for why these two incidents are so impactful for me? I’ve been here for less than four days as of this moment. Both of these incidents (and there have been more that I have not brought up) happened in my first 36 hours here. It makes me question if I can make a place for myself on this server and be happy here, more than temporarily. Before you queue the, “Well, just move on, then!” thought, ask yourself that if even half of all new players here encounter this and move on, what does that mean for SWG Evolve’s future? More to come in this line of thought.

I want to be clear – my purpose in this message is not a challenge or a phallic-metrics contest. This is an invitation to discuss, debate, voice, and come to a consensus - an agreement of the best way forward. At the time that I began writing this analysis, there had already been a good deal of advocacy for both change and leaving the system alone. Objectively, the advocates for change have made some fair points. Some viable solutions have been put forward to prevent what has occurred here. The advocates against change have offered little in the way of preventative solutions to the problem that is being addressed here besides “change the way you play.”

I am asking those of you who do not want change for that now, and these are not rhetorical questions.

• If you don’t want the system to change, how do we prevent what has happened from happening again – without blaming the helpless party and/or putting all that responsibility on them?

• If the system changes so that people who do not want to PVP do not have to accidentally, what do you lose? Are you gaining within the FRS system from these engagements? Why can’t we find a way to replace what you gain from these engagements in another way - if that is the case? If you are not profiting from these engagements, why do you not want them to stop?

These are not loaded questions – quite the opposite, I want and even need to understand your point of view on this issue. Please be as direct and straight-forward with me as I am with you right now.

As I see it, there are three different directions that this issue needs to be addressed from:

First, if they’re willing to answer or not, I need to pose some questions to the server’s leadership both about their vision for this server and some metrics regarding player behavior and retention. To be frank, I don’t expect public answers to some - or even all - of these questions. Some of these questions I can’t speculate to, some I won’t speculate to, but some will need speculation as it relates to what I’m trying to communicate. These questions are not arbitrary – the information I’m asking for with them will be important in determining what effect this issue has on server population. These questions are also important in determining how the effects of this and other policies are influencing the stated goals and vision for the server’s future. They are crucial to the growth and future of SWG Evolve. Even if these answers are never made public, they are ones that server leadership should be asking of themselves and each other to meet their goals and vision – not only as it relates to the issue currently at hand.

Second, we need to look at the profit and loss of what’s happening here. What is being gained by this system as it stands? What is being lost? Is there value in this transaction as it has been occurring? Is that value positive or negative? In what ways and for whom? If something is lost, how can that loss be balanced? If nothing is lost by making a change to the system, why are we resisting making the change?

Finally, after all of that is done, I’ll stop being dispassionate and restate my opinions. But this time, you’ll be able to see how I arrived there.

1. Questions for server leadership

So, from the top – I need to ask server leadership a number of questions. As I said, I don’t expect answers to some of them, or even all of them. It would be helpful to have answers to most, because it helps us all understand what to expect. That said, they don’t really owe us answers. On the other side of that coin, as I said above, most-to-all of these questions are ones they should be asking themselves and each other as they plot the course of this community. I’m going to try to group them together by relevance as I’m able, for easier reading while I comment on them.

What is SWG Evolve’s ultimate purpose? Is this server meant to be a PVP/FRS system haven? Is any other nature of participation welcome? Is PVP required here? Are you in pursuit of a specific type/sub-type of player?

Understanding the purpose of why this unique flavor of SWG exists is crucial to setting expectations for those of us who try to participate, and tempers our expectations of what we can expect from being here. No server specialization or expectation was communicated to me or anyone in my play group before joining – or at any point during the on-boarding process. If the nature of play here is expected to be different from the generally accepted norm seen on most other servers, this expectation needs to be communicated better.

What is SWG Evolve’s ultimate population goal? Does it want to grow to Legends’ size? Does it want to be more tight-knit and closer? Somewhere in between?

This question is important to understand so that policy can be looked at through the proper lens and understood by everyone. Answers to this might help us understand both your policies and the vision for the future. Between this and the previous questions, it allows us as players to understand, “Do I belong here? Is there a place for me here? Is the goal/vision/mission one I can get behind? Will there be enough/too many people here for my tastes?”

What is SWG Evolve’s 5-day player retention rate? 10-day? 30-day? 90-day? What is the average new-player join rate per month?

I don’t think it particularly likely that you have these metrics readily to hand. I especially don’t think it likely that we would ever see these numbers publicly. However, hidden in these numbers are the answers to how much appeal this unique SWG system has, as well as other policies and play experiences on the server. Most important, hidden in these metrics is the future of SWG Evolve. Maximizing some of these metrics – while minimizing others – is critical to the survival and growth of this server community.**

[windshadow0177]

Continued:

**2. Profit & loss of the current system

The heart of this issue is a binary question – do FRS participants profit from the kills of non-combatants or not? There are many ways to address that answer, but for now, I’m only interested in the raw metrics of the system. All the other related answers I’ll address later when I’m back into my opinions rather than looking at facts.

I personally do not have a factual answer to this question, so I will answer it both ways. When it comes down to battle-outcome, as it relates to non-combatants, I think we can all agree that - without fail - the non-combatant loses. If you disagree, I would like to hear your viewpoint.

If the current FRS system does allow FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and they profit. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

If the current FRS system does not allow the FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and lose nothing. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

At minimum, the non-combatant is inconvenienced in all cases, and to varying degrees, depending on the specific circumstances. It has been my frequent observation that this experience is upsetting and disturbing to the non-combatant.

If anyone wants to dispute that assessment, please do so in detail. I want to hear your viewpoint.

An important side-thought to this section – how much opposition would the idea of compensating non-combatants in these circumstances find? Something to mitigate the inconvenience and disturbing aspects of such an incident for a non-combatant? Please think on it and give me your thoughts.

3. What would be the result of changing the system to protect non-combatants?

As I proceed into this area, I am again shackled by not knowing if the FRS system allows a participant to profit from the action against a non-combatant, or not. Once more, I’ll address it from both points of view.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose out. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, I would think that an adjustment could be made at some level to help mitigate this negative impact for the FRS participant.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were not able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose nothing. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, there is no need to adjust anything as there was zero impact to anyone, positive or negative.

From my viewpoint, any loss sustained by FRS participants in the course of any change to this system is relatively simple to mitigate, and removal of negative events for non-combatants makes a powerful case for making such changes.

What conclusions can be drawn from where we are:

Foremost, I think the starting place in addressing this issue is clarifying for both existing and potential players in this community is the expectation of what we will encounter here. Is this a dedicated PVP server? Am I required to participate in PVP to play here? Is this baiting that I have witnessed a cost of playing with this community? Is getting caught in the crossfire of FRS combat a cost of being a part of this server?

As stated in Section 1, there is no warning in any place that I have found that a normal, customary use of the SWG UI can result in finding yourself in immediate - willing or not - PVP combat. To my thought process, this is the core mechanical issue that allows these chains of events. It is normal in every other server community that I have played in to click on someone for various purposes with no negative impact of any kind.

It is not normal in any other SWG environment that I have participated in over the course of 20 years for a single mouse-click or key press to be the only step from peaceful action to PVP combat when you have no expectation of or prior commitment to it (I.E., declaring Combatant or Special Forces in the standard NGE terms.) As a player, with no forewarning that this can happen, it’s not difficult to imagine the negative impact to my own or anyone else’s play experience.

While I have no facts or data to back this up, it is not difficult to imagine that this play mechanic as it stands results in a very high number of abandoned accounts and poor new-player retention. I would welcome any data that the server leadership would be willing to share in this area.

It is here that I’m going to begin crossing from analysis gradually into opinion. I will remain fact-based in what I have to say, or I will label it explicitly as my opinion.

The idea that any player can profit from the exploitation of another player who is not aware of the rules that they are playing by is objectively repugnant, setting aside the combatant/non-combatant issue for the moment. While I acknowledge that this is a moral position for the most part, it is possible to see that this mechanic has vast negative implications and impact for new-player retention. Who is going to click on someone to greet them, a normal action in the SWG world, get killed for it, and continue to hang around? Who is going to go through that without knowing it could happen and continue to participate? At best, this would result in creating a negative, adversarial feeling in such a new player that could manifest in a host of counter-productive ways. At worst, they leave and they don’t come back. I suspect that this has happened many times already. I suspect that the truth of this could be derived from the account and log-in history of the server as a whole over time.

If the FRS participants cannot profit from these engagements, this escalates the issue to a level of gross sadism. Again, I don’t profess to know whether anyone profits or doesn’t from these incidents. If no one is profiting from these non-combatants being subjected to unwilling PVP in the course of what is a totally normal interface action most anywhere else…

I’m stopping that thought there. There’s nothing good that can come of me finishing that thought for anyone. It would be counterproductive at this stage of the discussion.

The heart of SWG has always been its community. It is the reason why SWG was great more than 20 years ago. It’s the reason why it’s still here, 13 years after the last official server closed down. Everything good from this game comes from the people who play it - and yes, the people whose passion maintains it. I guess what I don’t understand in the issue at hand is this:

Why is it necessary, okay, or acceptable to make things more difficult for a part of the population that makes things better and/or easier for everyone??? While I’ve not made a study of it, I’ve looked at the market on this server, and it’s not awesome. It’s not terrible, I have seen worse, but it could definitely be better. That’s in the hands of the crafters. Why does their experience have to be worse than it has to be?

This is the question that I’d like the FRS participants to consider.

As for the server’s leadership, please let us know what your vision for this place is. Not so that we can judge it good or ill, but so that we know what to expect, and we can choose our own course without surprises.

TLDR:

The problem here centers around three facts -

New players are ambushed by this unique PVP system without warning.

This is driven by a normally benign action - clicking on another player. This action will result in no negative consequences on most - if not all - other servers.

If this server is supposed to be a PVP- dedicated or a Hybrid-PVP server, it is not communicated to new users. This is creating a false expectation.

The problem here may be complicated or compounded by two other factors, and one of them is certainly true -

FRS participants are actively profiting by the killing of non-combatants.
-OR-
FRS participants are griefing non-combatants for unknown reasons; and none of the possibilities appear pleasant.

The final fact is that none of the above is good for the server, as this certainly makes new player retention far more difficult.**

[windshadow0177]

Stormfinch, post: 701, member: 1058 wrote:

Why not just tie it to the existing crafters' and entertainer sets? If X=at least one piece of jewelry and Y=two or more masters completions, then Z. That way, both professions wouldn't have to constantly be switching between sets. It doesn't however protect the people fresh off the transport, so a notification on the launcher or something would certainly be nice. My original toon was born on live before jedi were a thing so I fell in love with a game that didn't have them, and they've never held much interest for me. Needless to say, I didn't realize that reading up on their care and feeding was a requirement.

I also have a question. Is all PVP initiated here with a single click?

If this is the route that's deemed best, I think a better solution would be a single-hand held item. This item would prevent both attacks being made and recieved. Add to that a equip-cooldown and wind-up for it to be used to prevent exploiting it to escape combat, and I think we have a good answer.

Edit - and to prevent the loss of stats for crafting activities, make it socketed.

[NORD]

windshadow0177, post: 703, member: 1090 wrote:

Continued:

**2. Profit & loss of the current system

The heart of this issue is a binary question – do FRS participants profit from the kills of non-combatants or not? There are many ways to address that answer, but for now, I’m only interested in the raw metrics of the system. All the other related answers I’ll address later when I’m back into my opinions rather than looking at facts.

I personally do not have a factual answer to this question, so I will answer it both ways. When it comes down to battle-outcome, as it relates to non-combatants, I think we can all agree that - without fail - the non-combatant loses. If you disagree, I would like to hear your viewpoint.

If the current FRS system does allow FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and they profit. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

If the current FRS system does not allow the FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and lose nothing. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

At minimum, the non-combatant is inconvenienced in all cases, and to varying degrees, depending on the specific circumstances. It has been my frequent observation that this experience is upsetting and disturbing to the non-combatant.**

If anyone wants to dispute that assessment, please do so in detail. I want to hear your viewpoint.

An important side-thought to this section – how much opposition would the idea of compensating non-combatants in these circumstances find? Something to mitigate the inconvenience and disturbing aspects of such an incident for a non-combatant? Please think on it and give me your thoughts.

**3. What would be the result of changing the system to protect non-combatants?

As I proceed into this area, I am again shackled by not knowing if the FRS system allows a participant to profit from the action against a non-combatant, or not. Once more, I’ll address it from both points of view.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose out. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, I would think that an adjustment could be made at some level to help mitigate this negative impact for the FRS participant.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were not able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose nothing. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, there is no need to adjust anything as there was zero impact to anyone, positive or negative.**

From my viewpoint, any loss sustained by FRS participants in the course of any change to this system is relatively simple to mitigate, and removal of negative events for non-combatants makes a powerful case for making such changes.

**What conclusions can be drawn from where we are:

Foremost, I think the starting place in addressing this issue is clarifying for both existing and potential players in this community is the expectation of what we will encounter here. Is this a dedicated PVP server? Am I required to participate in PVP to play here? Is this baiting that I have witnessed a cost of playing with this community? Is getting caught in the crossfire of FRS combat a cost of being a part of this server?

As stated in Section 1, there is no warning in any place that I have found that a normal, customary use of the SWG UI can result in finding yourself in immediate - willing or not - PVP combat. To my thought process, this is the core mechanical issue that allows these chains of events. It is normal in every other server community that I have played in to click on someone for various purposes with no negative impact of any kind.**

It is not normal in any other SWG environment that I have participated in over the course of 20 years for a single mouse-click or key press to be the only step from peaceful action to PVP combat when you have no expectation of or prior commitment to it (I.E., declaring Combatant or Special Forces in the standard NGE terms.) As a player, with no forewarning that this can happen, it’s not difficult to imagine the negative impact to my own or anyone else’s play experience.

While I have no facts or data to back this up, it is not difficult to imagine that this play mechanic as it stands results in a very high number of abandoned accounts and poor new-player retention. I would welcome any data that the server leadership would be willing to share in this area.

It is here that I’m going to begin crossing from analysis gradually into opinion. I will remain fact-based in what I have to say, or I will label it explicitly as my opinion.

**The idea that any player can profit from the exploitation of another player who is not aware of the rules that they are playing by is objectively repugnant, setting aside the combatant/non-combatant issue for the moment. While I acknowledge that this is a moral position for the most part, it is possible to see that this mechanic has vast negative implications and impact for new-player retention. Who is going to click on someone to greet them, a normal action in the SWG world, get killed for it, and continue to hang around? Who is going to go through that without knowing it could happen and continue to participate? At best, this would result in creating a negative, adversarial feeling in such a new player that could manifest in a host of counter-productive ways. At worst, they leave and they don’t come back. I suspect that this has happened many times already. I suspect that the truth of this could be derived from the account and log-in history of the server as a whole over time.

If the FRS participants cannot profit from these engagements, this escalates the issue to a level of gross sadism. Again, I don’t profess to know whether anyone profits or doesn’t from these incidents. If no one is profiting from these non-combatants being subjected to unwilling PVP in the course of what is a totally normal interface action most anywhere else…

I’m stopping that thought there. There’s nothing good that can come of me finishing that thought for anyone. It would be counterproductive at this stage of the discussion.**

**The heart of SWG has always been its community. It is the reason why SWG was great more than 20 years ago. It’s the reason why it’s still here, 13 years after the last official server closed down. Everything good from this game comes from the people who play it - and yes, the people whose passion maintains it. I guess what I don’t understand in the issue at hand is this:

Why is it necessary, okay, or acceptable to make things more difficult for a part of the population that makes things better and/or easier for everyone??? While I’ve not made a study of it, I’ve looked at the market on this server, and it’s not awesome. It’s not terrible, I have seen worse, but it could definitely be better. That’s in the hands of the crafters. Why does their experience have to be worse than it has to be?

This is the question that I’d like the FRS participants to consider.

As for the server’s leadership, please let us know what your vision for this place is. Not so that we can judge it good or ill, but so that we know what to expect, and we can choose our own course without surprises.

TLDR:

The problem here centers around three facts -

New players are ambushed by this unique PVP system without warning.

This is driven by a normally benign action - clicking on another player. This action will result in no negative consequences on most - if not all - other servers.

If this server is supposed to be a PVP- dedicated or a Hybrid-PVP server, it is not communicated to new users. This is creating a false expectation.

The problem here may be complicated or compounded by two other factors, and one of them is certainly true -

FRS participants are actively profiting by the killing of non-combatants.
-OR-
FRS participants are griefing non-combatants for unknown reasons; and none of the possibilities appear pleasant.

The final fact is that none of the above is good for the server, as this certainly makes new player retention far more difficult.**

I think you might be taking this a little too seriously.

If you don't want pvp, don't flag up or enter a pvp zone, and don't double click Jedi. It's really a simple as that.

To add to that, you could also remain neutral as a crafter or ent so that flagging up isn't even a possibility.

[windshadow0177]

NORD, post: 705, member: 16 wrote:

I think you might be taking this a little too seriously.

If you don't want pvp, don't flag up or enter a pvp zone, and don't double click Jedi. It's really a simple as that.

To add to that, you could also remain neutral as a crafter or ent so that flagging up isn't even a possibility.

It's my opinion that I don't think you're taking this seriously enough. I think it is extremely likely that this system, as it stands, is costing this server a large percentage of it's potential new players.

And the fact is I have watched this happen, to brand-new, non-aligned, non-combatants. So remaining neutral or not flagging is not a solution. The problem here is we do not know if or not this is a PVP-dedicated server. The larger problem over that is that a perfectly normal action resulting in no consequence on any other server is filling unsuspecting people's mouths with the taste of the floor they were standing on a moment before.

I hear your opinion, and I understand that you don't want things to change. What I don't know is *why *you don't want them to change. That makes me question your motives. If you read my message in full, you saw me ask you this, and I ask you again - Why do you not want this to change? How are you profiting from the death and discomfort of non-combatants? That you don't want to lose this profit is the only somewhat positive reason I can see for you to not want change.

By any objective standard, there is a problem here. Be it in unclear expectations. Definitely in the difference between the norms of interaction with other players in other SWG servers.

[Obani]

windshadow0177, post: 703, member: 1090 wrote:

Continued:

**2. Profit & loss of the current system

The heart of this issue is a binary question – do FRS participants profit from the kills of non-combatants or not? There are many ways to address that answer, but for now, I’m only interested in the raw metrics of the system. All the other related answers I’ll address later when I’m back into my opinions rather than looking at facts.

I personally do not have a factual answer to this question, so I will answer it both ways. When it comes down to battle-outcome, as it relates to non-combatants, I think we can all agree that - without fail - the non-combatant loses. If you disagree, I would like to hear your viewpoint.

If the current FRS system does allow FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and they profit. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

If the current FRS system does not allow the FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and lose nothing. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

At minimum, the non-combatant is inconvenienced in all cases, and to varying degrees, depending on the specific circumstances. It has been my frequent observation that this experience is upsetting and disturbing to the non-combatant.**

If anyone wants to dispute that assessment, please do so in detail. I want to hear your viewpoint.

An important side-thought to this section – how much opposition would the idea of compensating non-combatants in these circumstances find? Something to mitigate the inconvenience and disturbing aspects of such an incident for a non-combatant? Please think on it and give me your thoughts.

**3. What would be the result of changing the system to protect non-combatants?

As I proceed into this area, I am again shackled by not knowing if the FRS system allows a participant to profit from the action against a non-combatant, or not. Once more, I’ll address it from both points of view.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose out. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, I would think that an adjustment could be made at some level to help mitigate this negative impact for the FRS participant.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were not able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose nothing. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, there is no need to adjust anything as there was zero impact to anyone, positive or negative.**

From my viewpoint, any loss sustained by FRS participants in the course of any change to this system is relatively simple to mitigate, and removal of negative events for non-combatants makes a powerful case for making such changes.

**What conclusions can be drawn from where we are:

Foremost, I think the starting place in addressing this issue is clarifying for both existing and potential players in this community is the expectation of what we will encounter here. Is this a dedicated PVP server? Am I required to participate in PVP to play here? Is this baiting that I have witnessed a cost of playing with this community? Is getting caught in the crossfire of FRS combat a cost of being a part of this server?

As stated in Section 1, there is no warning in any place that I have found that a normal, customary use of the SWG UI can result in finding yourself in immediate - willing or not - PVP combat. To my thought process, this is the core mechanical issue that allows these chains of events. It is normal in every other server community that I have played in to click on someone for various purposes with no negative impact of any kind.**

It is not normal in any other SWG environment that I have participated in over the course of 20 years for a single mouse-click or key press to be the only step from peaceful action to PVP combat when you have no expectation of or prior commitment to it (I.E., declaring Combatant or Special Forces in the standard NGE terms.) As a player, with no forewarning that this can happen, it’s not difficult to imagine the negative impact to my own or anyone else’s play experience.

While I have no facts or data to back this up, it is not difficult to imagine that this play mechanic as it stands results in a very high number of abandoned accounts and poor new-player retention. I would welcome any data that the server leadership would be willing to share in this area.

It is here that I’m going to begin crossing from analysis gradually into opinion. I will remain fact-based in what I have to say, or I will label it explicitly as my opinion.

**The idea that any player can profit from the exploitation of another player who is not aware of the rules that they are playing by is objectively repugnant, setting aside the combatant/non-combatant issue for the moment. While I acknowledge that this is a moral position for the most part, it is possible to see that this mechanic has vast negative implications and impact for new-player retention. Who is going to click on someone to greet them, a normal action in the SWG world, get killed for it, and continue to hang around? Who is going to go through that without knowing it could happen and continue to participate? At best, this would result in creating a negative, adversarial feeling in such a new player that could manifest in a host of counter-productive ways. At worst, they leave and they don’t come back. I suspect that this has happened many times already. I suspect that the truth of this could be derived from the account and log-in history of the server as a whole over time.

If the FRS participants cannot profit from these engagements, this escalates the issue to a level of gross sadism. Again, I don’t profess to know whether anyone profits or doesn’t from these incidents. If no one is profiting from these non-combatants being subjected to unwilling PVP in the course of what is a totally normal interface action most anywhere else…

I’m stopping that thought there. There’s nothing good that can come of me finishing that thought for anyone. It would be counterproductive at this stage of the discussion.**

**The heart of SWG has always been its community. It is the reason why SWG was great more than 20 years ago. It’s the reason why it’s still here, 13 years after the last official server closed down. Everything good from this game comes from the people who play it - and yes, the people whose passion maintains it. I guess what I don’t understand in the issue at hand is this:

Why is it necessary, okay, or acceptable to make things more difficult for a part of the population that makes things better and/or easier for everyone??? While I’ve not made a study of it, I’ve looked at the market on this server, and it’s not awesome. It’s not terrible, I have seen worse, but it could definitely be better. That’s in the hands of the crafters. Why does their experience have to be worse than it has to be?

This is the question that I’d like the FRS participants to consider.

As for the server’s leadership, please let us know what your vision for this place is. Not so that we can judge it good or ill, but so that we know what to expect, and we can choose our own course without surprises.

TLDR:

The problem here centers around three facts -

New players are ambushed by this unique PVP system without warning.

This is driven by a normally benign action - clicking on another player. This action will result in no negative consequences on most - if not all - other servers.

If this server is supposed to be a PVP- dedicated or a Hybrid-PVP server, it is not communicated to new users. This is creating a false expectation.

The problem here may be complicated or compounded by two other factors, and one of them is certainly true -

FRS participants are actively profiting by the killing of non-combatants.
-OR-
FRS participants are griefing non-combatants for unknown reasons; and none of the possibilities appear pleasant.

The final fact is that none of the above is good for the server, as this certainly makes new player retention far more difficult.**

Wow that was a read. I don't want to respond with a short and seem as though I didn't take your thoughts into consideration.

But I'll offer you my perspective. Coming from a miner/spacer myself who also pops.

I haven't found an issue at all. Nobody has personally tried to kill one of my hand samplers or crafters. And if they did, why would it matter? There is no penalty for cloning.

NORD, post: 705, member: 16 wrote:

I think you might be taking this a little too seriously.

If you don't want pvp, don't flag up or enter a pvp zone, and don't double click Jedi. It's really a simple as that.

To add to that, you could also remain neutral as a crafter or ent so that flagging up isn't even a possibility.

Honestly, yea.

Being that there is no pending for death/cloning... I don't see the point.

I'm a miner/spacer and it hasn't been an issue

[NORD]

windshadow0177, post: 706, member: 1090 wrote:

It's my opinion that I don't think you're taking this seriously enough. I think it is extremely likely that this system, as it stands, is costing this server a large percentage of it's potential new players.

And the fact is I have watched this happen, to brand-new, non-aligned, non-combatants. So remaining neutral or not flagging is not a solution. The problem here is we do not know if or not this is a PVP-dedicated server. The larger problem over that is that a perfectly normal action resulting in no consequence on any other server is filling unsuspecting people's mouths with the taste of the floor they were standing on a moment before.

I hear your opinion, and I understand that you don't want things to change. What I don't know is *why *you don't want them to change. That makes me question your motives. If you read my message in full, you saw me ask you this, and I ask you again - Why do you not want this to change? How are you profiting from the death and discomfort of non-combatants? That you don't want to lose this profit is the only somewhat positive reason I can see for you to not want change.

By any objective standard, there is a problem here. Be it in unclear expectations. Definitely in the difference between the norms of interaction with other players in other SWG servers.

The Jedi FRS TEF system makes them attackable by anyone. That's by design and is a check to balance the powerscaling that they have access to from the FRS. In order for a Jedi to attack you, you have to attack them* first*.

That's it, that's all.

Evolve is not a pvp dedicated server, your friend just accidentally TEFed a Jedi. PvP will only find you if you take the actions to make yourself vulnerable to it. Also, you don't lost anything if you die. If someone dies because they TEFed a jedi and don't want that to happen again, they're now equipped with the knowledge to not allow that to happen again.

Let's stop trying to attribute meaning to what I'm saying beyond what I'm actually saying or trying to sniff out some underlying motive.

[Carista]

NORD, post: 708, member: 16 wrote:

The Jedi FRS TEF system makes them attackable by anyone. That's by design and is a check to balance the powerscaling that they have access to from the FRS.

What is the reasoning to making the Jedi TEF system so they attackable by everyone? What is the benefit of this? What is it that is hoped to be accomplished by making Jedi attackable by everyone and their grandmother? What powerscaling is achieved by making them attackable by everyone, including non-combat characters like entertainers and crafters?

The Jedi TEF is bound to FRS and should be treated as "Jedi business." No need what-so-ever to involve everyone into it. Right now, everyone gets involved in some way or form, and in my eyes, this is a flaw in the TEF. I would suggest making it so that Jedi are only attackable by Jedi. If some other profession and a Jedi want to battle it out, go to a PvP zone or organize a duel.

Historical reactions: Like × 1

[windshadow0177]

NORD, post: 708, member: 16 wrote:

The Jedi FRS TEF system makes them attackable by anyone. That's by design and is a check to balance the powerscaling that they have access to from the FRS. In order for a Jedi to attack you, you have to attack them* first*.

That's it, that's all.

Evolve is not a pvp dedicated server, your friend just accidentally TEFed a Jedi. PvP will only find you if you take the actions to make yourself vulnerable to it. Also, you don't lost anything if you die. If someone dies because they TEFed a jedi and don't want that to happen again, they're now equipped with the knowledge to not allow that to happen again.

Let's stop trying to attribute meaning to what I'm saying beyond what I'm actually saying or trying to sniff out some underlying motive.

Please answer my question. How do you profit from this system, if at all, as it stands? How do you lose, in this system, if it changes so that this kind of incident can not happen?

Also, in the more general sense, do FRS participants profit from this kind of kill? Do FRS participants get points for this? Is this a part of the FRS system? I need an answer to this, please. Anyone?

Perhaps the biggest part of the problem in this area is that these people cannot recognize the threat that is in front of them. Maybe this should be changed so that they show up like a hostile creature? Something that says, "I'm dangerous, don't try to interact with me." In any other SWG environment that I've played in, trying to interact with a flagged character, while faction-neutral or not flagged yourself has N E V E R resulted in combat, or any other negative reaction. To me, that all it takes is a mis-click, is like leaving firearms laying around in a daycare center.

Blaming the person who got TEF'd, while performing a customarily normal SWG Interface action, is, in my opinion, wrong. That's victim blaming. If they didn't know this could happen, why shouldn't they be surprised and shocked that it did?

To those that think these deaths are no big deal, consider this scenario -

You've just moved into a new house. You walk outside. You see one of your new neighbors. They wave to you. You wave back. They beat you to the ground immediately. Nice place to live, right?

You call the police. The police come. You tell them what happened. They tell you, "Well, that's the way it's always been here. Boys will be boys." And leave the matter.

Does this sound like somewhere you want to live?
This scenario is 100% what happened in the first incident I related to you.

This server does have a bunch of great things going for it. The complete absence of the grindy time-sinks between me and the things I love most? If that idea could wear a dress, I'd have already absconded to Jamacia to propose to it.

This FRS-TEFing system is a huge problem, and especially because I have already witnessed greifing with it, as well as some of the staff's attitude towards it. My combat toons that I need for farming? All of them have to be reworked to remove AoE DoTs and AoE direct damage. Because someone in the FRS system that gets it into their head to just wander into where I'm farming and kill all three toons. I know that kind of griefing will happen here because I have seen it.

And I am keenly aware that by standing up and giving voice to this, I don't just have a target on my back. There is not a square centimeter of me that is not a target. Quite possibly anyone that plays with me, too.

The time it takes to get set up? To get buffed? Get on an appropriate spot? This is not insignificant. Every time I'm sent to the cloner while I'm trying to do something, I lose time. This is not a victimless situation that some of you seem to think it is. Not one of us can get or make more time.

Look guys, I want to play here. I've already made adjustments to my play style to remain here until I get fed up. I'm making adjustments to my characters to work within what is, in my opinion, forced PVP where innocent and uninterested people are cashed in like coupons, or worse, played with like toys. I can't make you see the destructive elements that are at work here, if you agree about their existence or not. Even if you don't agree that it exists, you'll reap the result regardless.

Until I can't stand to be here anymore, peace out.

[NORD]

Carista, post: 709, member: 399 wrote:

What is the reasoning to making the Jedi TEF system so they attackable by everyone? What is the benefit of this? What is it that is hoped to be accomplished by making Jedi attackable by everyone and their grandmother? What powerscaling is achieved by making them attackable by everyone, including non-combat characters like entertainers and crafters?

The Jedi TEF is bound to FRS and should be treated as "Jedi business." No need what-so-ever to involve everyone into it. Right now, everyone gets involved in some way or form, and in my eyes, this is a flaw in the TEF. I would suggest making it so that Jedi are only attackable by Jedi. If some other profession and a Jedi want to battle it out, go to a PvP zone or organize a duel.

FRS jedi have increased powerscaling, and part of the way that this is balanced out so that there is some give and take, is to have them be perma SF and attackable by everyone.

For non-jedi players, it is absolutely 100% their choice to engage in combat with jedi - jedi cannot attack them if they aren't attacked first. If you attack a jedi and TEF them, that's on you.

It's not a big deal.

Considering that jedi are meant to be an alpha class, the TEF system surrounding FRS jedi is not going to be changing.

[NORD]

windshadow0177, post: 710, member: 1090 wrote:

Please answer my question. How do you profit from this system, if at all, as it stands? How do you lose, in this system, if it changes so that this kind of incident can not happen?

Also, in the more general sense, do FRS participants profit from this kind of kill? Do FRS participants get points for this? Is this a part of the FRS system? I need an answer to this, please. Anyone?

Perhaps the biggest part of the problem in this area is that these people cannot recognize the threat that is in front of them. Maybe this should be changed so that they show up like a hostile creature? Something that says, "I'm dangerous, don't try to interact with me." In any other SWG environment that I've played in, trying to interact with a flagged character, while faction-neutral or not flagged yourself has N E V E R resulted in combat, or any other negative reaction. To me, that all it takes is a mis-click, is like leaving firearms laying around in a daycare center.

Blaming the person who got TEF'd, while performing a customarily normal SWG Interface action, is, in my opinion, wrong. That's victim blaming. If they didn't know this could happen, why shouldn't they be surprised and shocked that it did?

To those that think these deaths are no big deal, consider this scenario -

You've just moved into a new house. You walk outside. You see one of your new neighbors. They wave to you. You wave back. They beat you to the ground immediately. Nice place to live, right?

You call the police. The police come. You tell them what happened. They tell you, "Well, that's the way it's always been here. Boys will be boys." And leave the matter.

Does this sound like somewhere you want to live?
This scenario is 100% what happened in the first incident I related to you.

This server does have a bunch of great things going for it. The complete absence of the grindy time-sinks between me and the things I love most? If that idea could wear a dress, I'd have already absconded to Jamacia to propose to it.

This FRS-TEFing system is a huge problem, and especially because I have already witnessed greifing with it, as well as some of the staff's attitude towards it. My combat toons that I need for farming? All of them have to be reworked to remove AoE DoTs and AoE direct damage. Because someone in the FRS system that gets it into their head to just wander into where I'm farming and kill all three toons. I know that kind of griefing will happen here because I have seen it.

And I am keenly aware that by standing up and giving voice to this, I don't just have a target on my back. There is not a square centimeter of me that is not a target. Quite possibly anyone that plays with me, too.

The time it takes to get set up? To get buffed? Get on an appropriate spot? This is not insignificant. Every time I'm sent to the cloner while I'm trying to do something, I lose time. This is not a victimless situation that some of you seem to think it is. Not one of us can get or make more time.

Look guys, I want to play here. I've already made adjustments to my play style to remain here until I get fed up. I'm making adjustments to my characters to work within what is, in my opinion, forced PVP where innocent and uninterested people are cashed in like coupons, or worse, played with like toys. I can't make you see the destructive elements that are at work here, if you agree about their existence or not. Even if you don't agree that it exists, you'll reap the result regardless.

Until I can't stand to be here anymore, peace out.

It's not a big deal. If you don't want to be attacked by jedi, don't attack them first. That's literally the long and short of it.

[Rezec]

Lets see. I will try to address most of your questions in my summary, apologizes for anything that I miss.

**On FRS: **This is an optional system for Jedi to opt in/opt out of that offers some increase in power as they rank up and it offers PvP-Mains the opportunity to be on their toes and be attackable, but almost anyone, anywhere, at any time. They are some built in restrictions around same guild, same account and same faction while SF to prevent unintended scenarios.

Is this a PvP Server: No, its not. There is a ton of PvE QoL on Evolve. There are upcoming updates that include World Bosses and new Heroics and Hardmodes of the existing heroics. However, we also have PvP QoL and encourage people to try out PvP who never have. There have been players who come out to PvP Events on Evolve that have NEVER PvPed on any SWG server in the past and that is amazing to see. Some things may seem a bit PvP heavy and that is because you can churn out PvP content far quicker and easier than PvE Scripted scenarios, but those are still coming.

On Population: Do we want to be the size of Legends? No. Are we competing with Server X, Y, Z? No. My unpopular opinion is that this is a bad way to look at it. Almost every server has something unique to offer and different takes on the same game. This should be celebrated and its amazing to see the things that talented people on different projects come up with.

As far as Evolve stands on population, we have a solid active population that continues to grow. Just last night we had 123 unique accounts playing. Do some people leave? Yes, that is every MMO that has ever existed. It won't be what everyone likes because it is impossible to please everyone. People who like to become AFK billionaires, will not like it here and we don't want them to like it here. People who are complete discord trolls? They wont like it here and we dont want them to like it here. Evolve has a long history of taking out the trash, so we will never be the biggest SWG Server, but we try our best to have the BEST COMMUNITY. Quality over Quantity of players has always been our motto.

We do our best to deal with trolls, exploiters, etc so that everyone here has a fun experience to relax and play a game. Some people will complain that I am too hands on with the community and should just let people run rampant and do what they want. If people want that, there are other servers for that.

If people are genuinely harassing other players they will be dealt with. We have zero tolerance for that. At the same time, this current situation is a bit blown out of proportion. The person that did get killed, got apologized to and tipped 50k or something because the Jedi didnt realize it was a crafter until it was too late. As an FRS Jedi almost everyone on the map is red to you, so yes you will try to click on a red player because you don't know if its a TEF, if its an enemy player, etc. A jedi can 100% NOT attack another non-SF player unless that player initiates the combat. You can wave back at players without clicking on them.
It is not uncommon for Jedi to hang out at starports and for the most part it is not to be spiteful, it is to make themselves easy to find.

That being said, I read feedback and I am constantly looking at adjustments to the TEF system that could make things more smooth for crafters and entertainers that WONT be exploitable in some way. Expect some adjustments, potentially in Tuesdays patch.

Historical reactions: Like × 2

[windshadow0177]

NORD, post: 712, member: 16 wrote:

It's not a big deal. If you don't want to be attacked by jedi, don't attack them first. That's literally the long and short of it.

Again, you evade and do not answer my question(s). This tell me that either you enjoy using people as toys or, you do, in fact, profit off of this.

[Carista]

OK, I'm not gonna argue with you anymor, NORD. You obviously don't want to answer critical questions and sweep every counterpoint under the carpet with remarks like "It's not a big deal." I've had it with people that don't take other points of view into serious consideration.

Historical reactions: Like × 1

[NORD]

windshadow0177, post: 714, member: 1090 wrote:

Again, you evade and do not answer my question(s). This tell me that either you enjoy using people as toys or, you do, in fact, profit off of this.

There's no exploiting going on and dying in swg has zero negative consequences on the player. Furthermore, you have to attack the jedi first in order for them to attack you.

It's an entirely voluntary and opt-in system for both parties.

I'm giving the facts as they are and not dramatizing the incident(s). Please stop attributing meaning where there isn't any.

[Rezec]

windshadow0177, post: 714, member: 1090 wrote:

Again, you evade and do not answer my question(s). This tell me that either you enjoy using people as toys or, you do, in fact, profit off of this.

If a non-jedi kills a Jedi they will receive GCW (if they are in a faction), Restuss Comms (if they are in a faction), 5,000 credits and a BH Token.

If a jedi kills another player they will receive FRS, Restuss Comms, 5,000 credits and an FRS Token.

Either person will get something for killing the other.

Historical reactions: Like × 1

[windshadow0177]

Rezec, post: 713, member: 1 wrote:

Lets see. I will try to address most of your questions in my summary, apologizes for anything that I miss.

**On FRS: **This is an optional system for Jedi to opt in/opt out of that offers some increase in power as they rank up and it offers PvP-Mains the opportunity to be on their toes and be attackable, but almost anyone, anywhere, at any time. They are some built in restrictions around same guild, same account and same faction while SF to prevent unintended scenarios.

Is this a PvP Server: No, its not. There is a ton of PvE QoL on Evolve. There are upcoming updates that include World Bosses and new Heroics and Hardmodes of the existing heroics. However, we also have PvP QoL and encourage people to try out PvP who never have. There have been players who come out to PvP Events on Evolve that have NEVER PvPed on any SWG server in the past and that is amazing to see. Some things may seem a bit PvP heavy and that is because you can churn out PvP content far quicker and easier than PvE Scripted scenarios, but those are still coming.

On Population: Do we want to be the size of Legends? No. Are we competing with Server X, Y, Z? No. My unpopular opinion is that this is a bad way to look at it. Almost every server has something unique to offer and different takes on the same game. This should be celebrated and its amazing to see the things that talented people on different projects come up with.

As far as Evolve stands on population, we have a solid active population that continues to grow. Just last night we had 123 unique accounts playing. Do some people leave? Yes, that is every MMO that has ever existed. It won't be what everyone likes because it is impossible to please everyone. People who like to become AFK billionaires, will not like it here and we don't want them to like it here. People who are complete discord trolls? They wont like it here and we dont want them to like it here. Evolve has a long history of taking out the trash, so we will never be the biggest SWG Server, but we try our best to have the BEST COMMUNITY. Quality over Quantity of players has always been our motto.

We do our best to deal with trolls, exploiters, etc so that everyone here has a fun experience to relax and play a game. Some people will complain that I am too hands on with the community and should just let people run rampant and do what they want. If people want that, there are other servers for that.

If people are genuinely harassing other players they will be dealt with. We have zero tolerance for that. At the same time, this current situation is a bit blown out of proportion. The person that did get killed, got apologized to and tipped 50k or something because the Jedi didnt realize it was a crafter until it was too late. As an FRS Jedi almost everyone on the map is red to you, so yes you will try to click on a red player because you don't know if its a TEF, if its an enemy player, etc. A jedi can 100% NOT attack another non-SF player unless that player initiates the combat. You can wave back at players without clicking on them.
It is not uncommon for Jedi to hang out at starports and for the most part it is not to be spiteful, it is to make themselves easy to find.

That being said, I read feedback and I am constantly looking at adjustments to the TEF system that could make things more smooth for crafters and entertainers that WONT be exploitable in some way. Expect some adjustments, potentially in Tuesdays patch.

Thank you for your detailed response.

I'll repeat another question that I can't seem to get an answer to. Do FRS participants profit/gain points from any kills that are NOT a direct participant to the FRS system? Are the non-combatants that have been attacked in these interactions contributing to the FRS system scores?

RE: the alluded to crafter death with my friend:
As I said before, that one was of both lesser and in a way, greater concern, because she was drawn in through no fault of her own. I absolutely appreciate both the apology and the effort to make my friend whole. To be blunt, that interaction is why I did not leave immediately. My understanding, however, was that it was a bystander that apologized and tried to make the situation right, not either of the participants.

Can something be done to make it more clear to those of us who do not wish to engage in this FRS combat who these participants are? So that we know that these people should not be interacted with in any way?

[mediocrebh]

NORD, post: 708, member: 16 wrote:

The Jedi FRS TEF system makes them attackable by anyone. That's by design and is a check to balance the powerscaling that they have access to from the FRS. In order for a Jedi to attack you, you have to attack them* first*.

That's it, that's all.

Evolve is not a pvp dedicated server, your friend just accidentally TEFed a Jedi. PvP will only find you if you take the actions to make yourself vulnerable to it. Also, you don't lost anything if you die. If someone dies because they TEFed a jedi and don't want that to happen again, they're now equipped with the knowledge to not allow that to happen again.

Let's stop trying to attribute meaning to what I'm saying beyond what I'm actually saying or trying to sniff out some underlying motive.

Let me preface this by saying that I would not want to see one dissatisfied player leave the game. I agree with NORD, I have never had my ent or crafters attacked but I, of course, am aware of the TEF. If there is a player that is harassing you with this or any other manner in the game, please report. I don't see the need for a massive overhaul based on a group of very few players that are trying to utilize the game mechanic to create disharmony for another player. I do not want to see anyone leave the server because they may have had a bad experience, but unfortunately, not everyone will be pleased with all of the game mechanics. If we go this direction, are we next going to nerf aggressive NPC/beasts because a new player drove by a group of aggressive kreetles and got killed and had to clone? Early on in this game's life, Jedi were always TEF'd and there has always been collateral damage. I mistakenly attacked the very first jedi (Eyeown Joo) I seen in the game while standing in the Coronet starport and got a trip to the cloner and some decay on my armor and weapon...such is life. My very first death by a player was because I was unknowingly TEF'd while running imperial missions and was unaware of the TEF system, plus lost my speeder. It would be unfortunate for anyone to leave this server because they dont agree with 1 of the hundreds of game mechanics that might cause a slight inconvenience, because they would be missing out on a great community and a unique spin on this game. All you have to do is look at the discord channels here to see how helpful/tolerable/considerate this community is. Even our PvP channel has very little toxicity...we have players who compete against each other (PvP or business) being helpful even if it might not necessarily be in their best competitive interest...I can't say that about other places.

Historical reactions: Like × 3