Status/Ability to be permanently opted out of any PvP for non-combat classes

[Cailener1234]

I'm presenting this suggestion on behalf of some folks who feel that when they're playing a non-combatant class, i.e. entertainer/crafter, they should be exempt from any and all forms of PvP, especially concerning when accidentally attacking FRS Jedi.

As such, here is a suggestion that VikingMando/Jax, Zero, Sphiynx and myself thought of and contributed to.

If you're wanting to be fully exempt from any and all PvP activities and to not accept any risks and benefits from doing so, the following should be met concerning your expertise points, of which you have 135 total:

1) Obtain Master Artisan/Entertainer
2) Obtain Master (Crafter of your choice)/Master Muse or other Ent tree.
3) You must have at minimum 120 Expertise points spread across the Entertainer/Crafting expertise trees

Fulfilling all 3 conditions can allow for those who do so to have an ability, to toggle on or off, to opt out of any and all PvP activities and cannot be forced into PvP in any natural and event-ran PvP zones/Fight Pits or cannot enter them. The extra 15 points can be used in any combat tree to assist those who are out and about doing resource gathering or otherwise get attacked by much lower level NPCs to make it easier to deal with those scenarios.

If you are not able to maintain the 3 requirements above at any given time, this buff will be removed from the character and you lose the ability to use it until all 3 requirements are satisfied and is granted again to you.

This is mainly meant to have a conversation started around this idea, it can always be adjusted to be more stricter or loosely depending on the community feedback.

 

[Vikingmando]

I'm presenting this suggestion on behalf of some folks who feel that when they're playing a non-combatant class, i.e. entertainer/crafter, they should be exempt from any and all forms of PvP, especially concerning when accidentally attacking FRS Jedi.

As such, here is a suggestion that VikingMando/Jax, Zero, Sphiynx and myself thought of and contributed to.

If you're wanting to be fully exempt from any and all PvP activities and to not accept any risks and benefits from doing so, the following should be met concerning your expertise points, of which you have 135 total:

1) Obtain Master Artisan/Entertainer
2) Obtain Master (Crafter of your choice)/Master Muse or other Ent tree.
3) You must have at minimum 120 Expertise points spread across the Entertainer/Crafting expertise trees

Fulfilling all 3 conditions can allow for those who do so to have an ability, to toggle on or off, to opt out of any and all PvP activities and cannot be forced into PvP in any natural and event-ran PvP zones/Fight Pits or cannot enter them. The extra 15 points can be used in any combat tree to assist those who are out and about doing resource gathering or otherwise get attacked by much lower level NPCs to make it easier to deal with those scenarios.

If you are not able to maintain the 3 requirements above at any given time, this buff will be removed from the character and you lose the ability to use it until all 3 requirements are satisfied and is granted again to you.

This is mainly meant to have a conversation started around this idea, it can always be adjusted to be more stricter or loosely depending on the community feedback.

I like this idea, i've already stated my feelings before and i'm all for the change. Provided we can ensure it cant be abused, manipulated or exploited in any way to avoid combat by combat characters.

the other thing I would like to mention is that if you were to go into say restuss or a city invasion because they are "PvP zones" the "anti-pvp" buff these characters receive should be removed in order to participate in them. which if i understand how you explained it. that would be a requirement.

 

[windshadow0177]

I'm presenting this suggestion on behalf of some folks who feel that when they're playing a non-combatant class, i.e. entertainer/crafter, they should be exempt from any and all forms of PvP, especially concerning when accidentally attacking FRS Jedi.

As such, here is a suggestion that VikingMando/Jax, Zero, Sphiynx and myself thought of and contributed to.

If you're wanting to be fully exempt from any and all PvP activities and to not accept any risks and benefits from doing so, the following should be met concerning your expertise points, of which you have 135 total:

1) Obtain Master Artisan/Entertainer
2) Obtain Master (Crafter of your choice)/Master Muse or other Ent tree.
3) You must have at minimum 120 Expertise points spread across the Entertainer/Crafting expertise trees

Fulfilling all 3 conditions can allow for those who do so to have an ability, to toggle on or off, to opt out of any and all PvP activities and cannot be forced into PvP in any natural and event-ran PvP zones/Fight Pits or cannot enter them. The extra 15 points can be used in any combat tree to assist those who are out and about doing resource gathering or otherwise get attacked by much lower level NPCs to make it easier to deal with those scenarios.

If you are not able to maintain the 3 requirements above at any given time, this buff will be removed from the character and you lose the ability to use it until all 3 requirements are satisfied and is granted again to you.

This is mainly meant to have a conversation started around this idea, it can always be adjusted to be more stricter or loosely depending on the community feedback.

As an observer to some recent shenanigans, I very much approve and appreciate the thought put into this initiative. I realize, that as a new-comer to the server, my opinion and viewpoint might be considered of limited value.

I haven't had time to learn the "character" of this server, but I do very much appreciate an environment that appreciates the value of my time by not miring me in needless grinds. I also very much appreciate the hybrid system that embraces much of what made the original release, and later the CU, the unique and attractive system that married me to the game all the way back in the early 2000's.

I have hopes to encourage more of my personal gaming circle to relocate here, but what I've observed in regard to this issue has made me hesitate. I'm not about to invite more friends to come here and be playthings for others. While some of these incidents might have benign explanations, one which I observed definitely did not, and I am not going to invite people whose company I enjoy to be subjected to such indignities. This suggestion once more encourages the hope that I might at some point feel comfortable about inviting other here to call SWG Evolve home.

Regarding this proposal as written, I do feel that 15 points of combat-ability as a threshold to be a bit too restrictive. I can't see any character with 35 points of combat expertise or less being any sort of serious contention or threat to a fully combat-able or more heavily combat oriented avatar. In my own personal use, most of my four crafting/support characters have about 17 to 20 (as of this writing, I don't have exact numbers,) of combat expertise solely to promote PVE-survive-ability as they pursue their missions of procuring resources and providing support to other avatars. Perhaps a better number for this metric would be 25 expertise to attain and entrench that neutrality. I'd be happy to discuss and debate this metric more.

Thank you for bringing this issue to the fore, as I see it as central to my own and many other's future here.

 

[windshadow0177]

the other thing I would like to mention is that if you were to go into say restuss or a city invasion because they are "PvP zones" the "anti-pvp" buff these characters receive should be removed in order to participate in them. which if i understand how you explained it. that would be a requirement.

A very valid point. An exclusion zone in instances like this would be entirely appropriate. That said, I do think it would need to come with a warning message so that someone who is ignorant couldn't be decoyed into or accidentally wander into such an area.

 

[NORD]

Apart from crossing the Restuss boundary while combatant, what else forces a toon to by flagged SF? It seems to be that if you want to avoid pvp completely, there's literally nothing that can force that upon a player unless they make an active decision that makes them vulnerable.

I personally don't see any issues with our current pvp/tef system in the way that traders/ents/"non-combatants" can stay out of harms way unless they decide to put themselves there.

In terms of pvp events and fight pits that happen at the most once a week, you could just stay away for the duration if you're on a character that is a "non-combatant"? They're usually not around anything and don't last longer than an hour.

I think this is making mountains out of molehills.

 

[windshadow0177]

Apart from crossing the Restuss boundary while combatant, what else forces a toon to by flagged SF? It seems to be that if you want to avoid pvp completely, there's literally nothing that can force that upon a player unless they make an active decision that makes them vulnerable.

I personally don't see any issues with our current pvp/tef system in the way that traders/ents/"non-combatants" can stay out of harms way unless they decide to put themselves there.

In terms of pvp events and fight pits that happen at the most once a week, you could just stay away for the duration if you're on a character that is a "non-combatant"? They're usually not around anything and don't last longer than an hour.

I think this is making mountains out of molehills.

After watching my friend, who was trying to answer an emote by a TEF'd Jedi with their own emote - on their pure-crafting avatar - and got incapped for it, within an hour of welcoming me to the server... I respectfully disagree. There is something fundamentally wrong when that's all it takes for an aggressor to have clearance to engage.

Further, when called out on another attempt on the same player in another avatar - also helpless compared to the aggressor - the reply of one of those involved was, "They're learning!" Based on that, you cannot convince me that the goal was not to bait my friend into another incap or worse.

People are not toys.

 

[Rezec]

I've never had to click on a player to type /wave NORD

 

[Ishna]

I agree with Nord. You can't expect to go to a city "invasion," a word that is used when describing warzones, and not be part of the "war." You're choosing to actively enter a contested warzone. Much like journalists do in real wars, they take precautions, but accidents happen. You can't just magically prance in there and expect no one to accidently shoot at you in the fog of war.

When it comes to trolls baiting, that's a different argument, but one that doesn't need a change of an entire system. A quite simple fix, is just respond to emotes in spatial if you feel that they're trying to bait you. Report them if they do bait you, attacking crafters is a no-no amongst all of the main people who PvP on this server. Attacking crafter's is not only pointless, it has the opposite effect on what we want, growth. More growth = more PvP down the road. Reporting obvious trolls for greifing crafters is easy to do, the CSR's are very active as well as the Community Managers whose entire job is to just focus on events such as those.

I'm sorry you had a negative experience. That doesn't mean the TEF system is broken.

 

[NORD]

After watching my friend, who was trying to answer an emote by a TEF'd Jedi with their own emote - on their pure-crafting avatar - and got incapped for it, within an hour of welcoming me to the server... I respectfully disagree. There is something fundamentally wrong when that's all it takes for an aggressor to have clearance to engage.

Further, when called out on another attempt on the same player in another avatar - also helpless compared to the aggressor - the reply of one of those involved was, "They're learning!" Based on that, you cannot convince me that the goal was not to bait my friend into another incap or worse.

People are not toys.

Jedi TEFs were not part of the original suggestion, so it's kind of a moot point because those are likely never going away. Jedi TEFs (if they are part of the FRS) are designed to make them attackable by anyone at any time. That's the trade off of being an FRS ranked jedi.

You also don't lose anything if you die. It's really not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. Frankly, if this is actually something that would make someone quit the server, anything could be the trigger for that.

It's a game, let's please treat it as one.

 

[NORD]

Jedi TEFs were not part of the original suggestion, so it's kind of a moot point because those are likely never going away. Jedi TEFs (if they are part of the FRS) are designed to make them attackable by anyone at any time. That's the trade off of being an FRS ranked jedi.

You also don't lose anything if you die. It's really not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. Frankly, if this is actually something that would make someone quit the server, anything could be the trigger for that.

It's a game, let's please treat it as one.

Would also like to add that there is a keybind to set intended target, which is a better option than left clicking things and accidentally TEFing them.

 

[UnaZero34]

Would also like to add that there is a keybind to set intended target, which is a better option than left clicking things and accidentally TEFing them.

There is and it is bound by default to “X”

 

[NORD]

There is and it is bound by default to “X”

I like to rebind it to right click.

 

[UnaZero34]

I like to rebind it to right click.

The option is called set intended target

 

[Cailener1234]

Here is an additional idea that I just thought of that can be a compromise and be much simpler.

Instead of making it an ability or status that you toggle on or off, tie it into a jewelry set, labeled the Pacifist’s Set, which would be No Trade and Unique.

Since the discussion is surrounding more of the TEF system and not so much PvP in general since the game itself already makes it abundantly clear on your status, the 5 piece set bonus would grant a permanent buff/status that the wearer would be considered not affected by TEF while in turn keeping that player affected by the existing PvP zones.

The following condition to even wear the set at any given time would be to have a minimum of any of the 3 master class boxes checked under entertainer or crafting trees. To make this streamlined, 2 sets of these would be created. One for the Crafting side, One for the Entertainer side.

Each of these sets would cost 10 tokens each.

If any of the 3 master boxes are unclicked, then that person would lose the ability to wear the set pieces until they would have any 3 boxes again.

 

[NORD]

Here is an additional idea that I just thought of that can be a compromise and be much simpler.

Instead of making it an ability or status that you toggle on or off, tie it into a jewelry set, labeled the Pacifist’s Set, which would be No Trade and Unique.

Since the discussion is surrounding more of the TEF system and not so much PvP in general since the game itself already makes it abundantly clear on your status, the 5 piece set bonus would grant a permanent buff/status that the wearer would be considered not affected by TEF while in turn keeping that player affected by the existing PvP zones.

The following condition to even wear the set at any given time would be to have a minimum of any of the 3 master class boxes checked under entertainer or crafting trees. To make this streamlined, 2 sets of these would be created. One for the Crafting side, One for the Entertainer side.

Each of these sets would cost 10 tokens each.

If any of the 3 master boxes are unclicked, then that person would lose the ability to wear the set pieces until they would have any 3 boxes again.

This looks like a lot of work to solve a problem that's barely even there. It takes zero work to completely avoid pvp if that's what you're looking to accomplish.

 

[Cailener1234]

My 2nd suggestion provides a way for them to still be affected by PvP since the recurring issue is tied to TEF. If we had them be able to avoid PvP altogether, then they wouldn't be able to be Special Forces and go into Deep Space/Kessel which would cost a host of other issues. That being said, if someone is accidentally SF, in which everyone here has been through that, then that's entirely on that person.

To be clear, I 100% agree with you that there are little things that people can do and learn. If you left click on a person and if this reticle/cursor
is not there, they are clearly able to be attacked. You can also hover your mouse/cursor over the player, click x, and target them that way. You can also use the ~ key to examine, duel, trade, show character sheet, invite to group. On a vehicle, you can examine it, enter it and store it. This has always been the case since I started this game back in 2005.

I'm simply just trying to think of ways to assist folks overall while not allowing people to take advantage of the ideas we put into place. I want to welcome everyone here and to enjoy the server the way that they want. If the way they enjoy the server infringes on others enjoyment, then that's a problem and will be handled on a case by case basis. This takes the responsibility of EVERYONE to make this server work. Crafters, Entertainers, PvErs, PvPrs, and hopefully RPers too. If you don't like what someone is doing to you, report them, provide screenshots, give suggestions from small to big. Our CSRs are some of the most helpful folks in the game and take the time to work with people.

 

[Stormfinch]

Here is an additional idea that I just thought of that can be a compromise and be much simpler.

Instead of making it an ability or status that you toggle on or off, tie it into a jewelry set, labeled the Pacifist’s Set, which would be No Trade and Unique.

Since the discussion is surrounding more of the TEF system and not so much PvP in general since the game itself already makes it abundantly clear on your status, the 5 piece set bonus would grant a permanent buff/status that the wearer would be considered not affected by TEF while in turn keeping that player affected by the existing PvP zones.

The following condition to even wear the set at any given time would be to have a minimum of any of the 3 master class boxes checked under entertainer or crafting trees. To make this streamlined, 2 sets of these would be created. One for the Crafting side, One for the Entertainer side.

Each of these sets would cost 10 tokens each.

If any of the 3 master boxes are unclicked, then that person would lose the ability to wear the set pieces until they would have any 3 boxes again.

Why not just tie it to the existing crafters' and entertainer sets? If X=at least one piece of jewelry and Y=two or more masters completions, then Z. That way, both professions wouldn't have to constantly be switching between sets. It doesn't however protect the people fresh off the transport, so a notification on the launcher or something would certainly be nice. My original toon was born on live before jedi were a thing so I fell in love with a game that didn't have them, and they've never held much interest for me. Needless to say, I didn't realize that reading up on their care and feeding was a requirement.

I also have a question. Is all PVP initiated here with a single click?

 

[windshadow0177]

I’ve waited for as many as possible to have their say before I lay out my analysis of this issue. My stance has not changed, and I’m about to dispassionately lay out the entirety of my thinking and point of view. I’m asking all of you for the same.

TLDR at the bottom.

First, about me. My perspective is as a dedicated crafter – with a single caveat: my game is in space. I am a pilot. If there was a way for me to get everything I need to do the things I love, I’d never have my feet touch land. If Ord Mantel would rent me a hanger for a house, I’d stay there. If it were possible to park harvesters on rocks to get the resources I need to craft, I’d do it. Hell, I’d use the asteroid mining system to get all my resources if it worked that way.

The only reason I have ground-combat avatars is because I need them to collect resources. By my count (and my count may be off,) there are only 3 crafting classes that I don’t care about – chef, bioengineering, and beast mastery. As I said, that may be off as I’m still learning your system.

On the other side of that, all my avatars have maximum hand sampling skills and harvester efficiency skills. In the technical sense, none of my avatars are for ground combat. Every one of my avatars’ purpose is to support crafting. Ground Combat is the sideshow – a necessary side-effect so that I can create. My toons are on the ground to craft and collect resources. While I might dabble in other content, like OGs, that’s secondary to what my SWG engagement is about.

My interest in PVP – in space or on the ground – is zero. If possible, it is deep in the negative digits. The only person I care to measure myself against is me.


Last, what catapulted me into this discussion – and I’ve already related one incident. What I have not related is what followed. That incident was reported to the server’s support system. To summarize that CSR’s response in a single sentence, “Boys will be boys and it’s always been this way.”

A second incident involved another friend, and while this incident appears to have been more benign, it remains deeply impactful and negative to both me and my friend. In some ways, it’s more concerning to me because of its apparent accidental nature. This appears to be a case of wrong place/wrong time and is more worrisome because it could have very easily been me; that it will eventually be me. I am aware of server leadership’s engagement with my friend on this issue, and am appreciative that it is getting some attention. What I think both of these incidents show is that the system needs a bare minimum of added guard rails.

As for why these two incidents are so impactful for me? I’ve been here for less than four days as of this moment. Both of these incidents (and there have been more that I have not brought up) happened in my first 36 hours here. It makes me question if I can make a place for myself on this server and be happy here, more than temporarily. Before you queue the, “Well, just move on, then!” thought, ask yourself that if even half of all new players here encounter this and move on, what does that mean for SWG Evolve’s future? More to come in this line of thought.



I want to be clear – my purpose in this message is not a challenge or a phallic-metrics contest. This is an invitation to discuss, debate, voice, and come to a consensus - an agreement of the best way forward. At the time that I began writing this analysis, there had already been a good deal of advocacy for both change and leaving the system alone. Objectively, the advocates for change have made some fair points. Some viable solutions have been put forward to prevent what has occurred here. The advocates against change have offered little in the way of preventative solutions to the problem that is being addressed here besides “change the way you play.”

I am asking those of you who do not want change for that now, and these are not rhetorical questions.

- If you don’t want the system to change, how do we prevent what has happened from happening again – without blaming the helpless party and/or putting all that responsibility on them?

- If the system changes so that people who do not want to PVP do not have to accidentally, what do you lose? Are you gaining within the FRS system from these engagements? Why can’t we find a way to replace what you gain from these engagements in another way - if that is the case? If you are not profiting from these engagements, why do you not want them to stop?

These are not loaded questions – quite the opposite, I want and even need to understand your point of view on this issue. Please be as direct and straight-forward with me as I am with you right now.


As I see it, there are three different directions that this issue needs to be addressed from:

First, if they’re willing to answer or not, I need to pose some questions to the server’s leadership both about their vision for this server and some metrics regarding player behavior and retention. To be frank, I don’t expect public answers to some - or even all - of these questions. Some of these questions I can’t speculate to, some I won’t speculate to, but some will need speculation as it relates to what I’m trying to communicate. These questions are not arbitrary – the information I’m asking for with them will be important in determining what effect this issue has on server population. These questions are also important in determining how the effects of this and other policies are influencing the stated goals and vision for the server’s future. They are crucial to the growth and future of SWG Evolve. Even if these answers are never made public, they are ones that server leadership should be asking of themselves and each other to meet their goals and vision – not only as it relates to the issue currently at hand.


Second, we need to look at the profit and loss of what’s happening here. What is being gained by this system as it stands? What is being lost? Is there value in this transaction as it has been occurring? Is that value positive or negative? In what ways and for whom? If something is lost, how can that loss be balanced? If nothing is lost by making a change to the system, why are we resisting making the change?


Finally, after all of that is done, I’ll stop being dispassionate and restate my opinions. But this time, you’ll be able to see how I arrived there.



1. Questions for server leadership

So, from the top – I need to ask server leadership a number of questions. As I said, I don’t expect answers to some of them, or even all of them. It would be helpful to have answers to most, because it helps us all understand what to expect. That said, they don’t really owe us answers. On the other side of that coin, as I said above, most-to-all of these questions are ones they should be asking themselves and each other as they plot the course of this community. I’m going to try to group them together by relevance as I’m able, for easier reading while I comment on them.



What is SWG Evolve’s ultimate purpose? Is this server meant to be a PVP/FRS system haven? Is any other nature of participation welcome? Is PVP required here? Are you in pursuit of a specific type/sub-type of player?

Understanding the purpose of why this unique flavor of SWG exists is crucial to setting expectations for those of us who try to participate, and tempers our expectations of what we can expect from being here. No server specialization or expectation was communicated to me or anyone in my play group before joining – or at any point during the on-boarding process. If the nature of play here is expected to be different from the generally accepted norm seen on most other servers, this expectation needs to be communicated better.



What is SWG Evolve’s ultimate population goal? Does it want to grow to Legends’ size? Does it want to be more tight-knit and closer? Somewhere in between?

This question is important to understand so that policy can be looked at through the proper lens and understood by everyone. Answers to this might help us understand both your policies and the vision for the future. Between this and the previous questions, it allows us as players to understand, “Do I belong here? Is there a place for me here? Is the goal/vision/mission one I can get behind? Will there be enough/too many people here for my tastes?”



What is SWG Evolve’s 5-day player retention rate? 10-day? 30-day? 90-day? What is the average new-player join rate per month?

I don’t think it particularly likely that you have these metrics readily to hand. I especially don’t think it likely that we would ever see these numbers publicly. However, hidden in these numbers are the answers to how much appeal this unique SWG system has, as well as other policies and play experiences on the server. Most important, hidden in these metrics is the future of SWG Evolve. Maximizing some of these metrics – while minimizing others – is critical to the survival and growth of this server community.

 

[windshadow0177]

Continued:

2. Profit & loss of the current system

The heart of this issue is a binary question – do FRS participants profit from the kills of non-combatants or not? There are many ways to address that answer, but for now, I’m only interested in the raw metrics of the system. All the other related answers I’ll address later when I’m back into my opinions rather than looking at facts.

I personally do not have a factual answer to this question, so I will answer it both ways. When it comes down to battle-outcome, as it relates to non-combatants, I think we can all agree that - without fail - the non-combatant loses. If you disagree, I would like to hear your viewpoint.

If the current FRS system does allow FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and they profit. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

If the current FRS system does not allow the FRS participants to profit, they win the fight and lose nothing. The non-combatant gains nothing of positive value.

At minimum, the non-combatant is inconvenienced in all cases, and to varying degrees, depending on the specific circumstances. It has been my frequent observation that this experience is upsetting and disturbing to the non-combatant.

If anyone wants to dispute that assessment, please do so in detail. I want to hear your viewpoint.



An important side-thought to this section – how much opposition would the idea of compensating non-combatants in these circumstances find? Something to mitigate the inconvenience and disturbing aspects of such an incident for a non-combatant? Please think on it and give me your thoughts.



3. What would be the result of changing the system to protect non-combatants?

As I proceed into this area, I am again shackled by not knowing if the FRS system allows a participant to profit from the action against a non-combatant, or not. Once more, I’ll address it from both points of view.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose out. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, I would think that an adjustment could be made at some level to help mitigate this negative impact for the FRS participant.

If the system were to be changed from FRS participants being able to engage non-combatants where they were not able to profit from those engagements, the FRS participant would lose nothing. The non-combatant would be able to continue on their way without consequence.
In this case, there is no need to adjust anything as there was zero impact to anyone, positive or negative.

From my viewpoint, any loss sustained by FRS participants in the course of any change to this system is relatively simple to mitigate, and removal of negative events for non-combatants makes a powerful case for making such changes.



What conclusions can be drawn from where we are:

Foremost, I think the starting place in addressing this issue is clarifying for both existing and potential players in this community is the expectation of what we will encounter here. Is this a dedicated PVP server? Am I required to participate in PVP to play here? Is this baiting that I have witnessed a cost of playing with this community? Is getting caught in the crossfire of FRS combat a cost of being a part of this server?

As stated in Section 1, there is no warning in any place that I have found that a normal, customary use of the SWG UI can result in finding yourself in immediate - willing or not - PVP combat. To my thought process, this is *the* core mechanical issue that allows these chains of events. It is normal in every other server community that I have played in to click on someone for various purposes with no negative impact of any kind.


It is not normal in any other SWG environment that I have participated in over the course of 20 years for a *single* mouse-click or key press to be the only step from peaceful action to PVP combat when you have no expectation of or prior commitment to it (I.E., declaring Combatant or Special Forces in the standard NGE terms.) As a player, with no forewarning that this can happen, it’s not difficult to imagine the negative impact to my own or anyone else’s play experience.



While I have no facts or data to back this up, it is not difficult to imagine that this play mechanic as it stands results in a very high number of abandoned accounts and poor new-player retention. I would welcome any data that the server leadership would be willing to share in this area.



It is here that I’m going to begin crossing from analysis gradually into opinion. I will remain fact-based in what I have to say, or I will label it explicitly as my opinion.



The idea that any player can profit from the exploitation of another player who is not aware of the rules that they are playing by is objectively repugnant, setting aside the combatant/non-combatant issue for the moment. While I acknowledge that this is a moral position for the most part, it is possible to see that this mechanic has vast negative implications and impact for new-player retention. Who is going to click on someone to greet them, a normal action in the SWG world, get killed for it, and continue to hang around? Who is going to go through that without knowing it could happen and continue to participate? At best, this would result in creating a negative, adversarial feeling in such a new player that could manifest in a host of counter-productive ways. At worst, they leave and they don’t come back. I suspect that this has happened many times already. I suspect that the truth of this could be derived from the account and log-in history of the server as a whole over time.

If the FRS participants cannot profit from these engagements, this escalates the issue to a level of gross sadism. Again, I don’t profess to know whether anyone profits or doesn’t from these incidents. If no one is profiting from these non-combatants being subjected to unwilling PVP in the course of what is a totally normal interface action most anywhere else…

I’m stopping that thought there. There’s nothing good that can come of me finishing that thought for anyone. It would be counterproductive at this stage of the discussion.



The heart of SWG has always been its community. It is the reason why SWG was great more than 20 years ago. It’s the reason why it’s still here, 13 years after the last official server closed down. Everything good from this game comes from the people who play it - and yes, the people whose passion maintains it. I guess what I don’t understand in the issue at hand is this:

Why is it necessary, okay, or acceptable to make things more difficult for a part of the population that makes things better and/or easier for everyone??? While I’ve not made a study of it, I’ve looked at the market on this server, and it’s not awesome. It’s not terrible, I have seen worse, but it could definitely be better. That’s in the hands of the crafters. Why does their experience have to be worse than it has to be?

This is the question that I’d like the FRS participants to consider.

As for the server’s leadership, please let us know what your vision for this place is. Not so that we can judge it good or ill, but so that we know what to expect, and we can choose our own course without surprises.





TLDR:

The problem here centers around three facts -


New players are ambushed by this unique PVP system without warning.

This is driven by a normally benign action - clicking on another player. This action will result in no negative consequences on most - if not all - other servers.

If this server is supposed to be a PVP- dedicated or a Hybrid-PVP server, it is not communicated to new users. This is creating a false expectation.



The problem here may be complicated or compounded by two other factors, and one of them is certainly true -

FRS participants are actively profiting by the killing of non-combatants.
-OR-
FRS participants are griefing non-combatants for unknown reasons; and none of the possibilities appear pleasant.



The final fact is that none of the above is good for the server, as this certainly makes new player retention far more difficult.

 

[windshadow0177]

Why not just tie it to the existing crafters' and entertainer sets? If X=at least one piece of jewelry and Y=two or more masters completions, then Z. That way, both professions wouldn't have to constantly be switching between sets. It doesn't however protect the people fresh off the transport, so a notification on the launcher or something would certainly be nice. My original toon was born on live before jedi were a thing so I fell in love with a game that didn't have them, and they've never held much interest for me. Needless to say, I didn't realize that reading up on their care and feeding was a requirement.

I also have a question. Is all PVP initiated here with a single click?

If this is the route that's deemed best, I think a better solution would be a single-hand held item. This item would prevent both attacks being made and recieved. Add to that a equip-cooldown and wind-up for it to be used to prevent exploiting it to escape combat, and I think we have a good answer.

Edit - and to prevent the loss of stats for crafting activities, make it socketed.